Progressive Rock

[markmcf]

We need a progressive rock thread. It is clear that many of the folks in the Rock forum are not fans of Progressive Rock.

Oh, and I should define what I mean here. Progressive Rock has always been an effort to expand the boundaries of Rock music by adding other influences, like classical music, jazz, folk, flamenco, and so on.

So for examples:
Yes
Emerson, Lake, & Palmer
King Crimson
Jethro Tull
Pink Floyd
Camel
Genesis (early stuff, Wind and Wuthering and before)
Renaissance
Mike Oldfield

And for newer bands:
iQ
Marillion
Flower Kings
Moth Vellum
Rocket Scientists

So, anyone with me on this? Or am I to be a lonely voice in the wilderness?

- Mark

[ManWithNoName]

Would Coheed and Cambria be considered Prog Rock? They're pretty awesome.

[Smiley321]

Originally Posted by markmcf

We need a progressive rock thread. It is clear that many of the folks in the Rock forum are not fans of Progressive Rock.

Oh, and I should define what I mean here. Progressive Rock has always been an effort to expand the boundaries of Rock music by adding other influences, like classical music, jazz, folk, flamenco, and so on.

So for examples:
Yes
Emerson, Lake, & Palmer
King Crimson
Jethro Tull
Pink Floyd
Camel
Genesis (early stuff, Wind and Wuthering and before)
Renaissance
Mike Oldfield

And for newer bands:
iQ
Marillion
Flower Kings
Moth Vellum
Rocket Scientists

So, anyone with me on this? Or am I to be a lonely voice in the wilderness?

- Mark

I'm a big progrock fan. I'm in the process of converting some of my old LP's to CD's, foreign bands like Le Orme, Osanna and Area. OK, I can get most of them on CD these days but it's kind of fun.

Of those newer bands you list, which do you rate highest? I've tried some Marillion and not been real satisfied. A 90's vintage band I did like alot was Mastermind, led by Bill Behrends.

Progrock at its best, like Close to the Edge or Trilogy, is my favorite stuff ever. But when they get too full of themselves and go off the deep end, like Yes did with Tales and ELP did with Works, it's pretty painful.

[Smiley321]

By the way, a couple of quality web sites on Progrock

-The Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive rock - one of the first collections of info on progrock on the web

- Syn-Phonic Music | Welcome to the World of Progressive Rock
Greg Walker has been selling obscure progrock CD's for a long time, there's alot more sites now but I mention Walker because he's been at it since people started selling stuff over the internet.

[markmcf]

Excellent! Other progheads!

"Coheed and Cambria" I don't know these bands so I couldn't say.

Marillion are an acquired taste. I've seen them in concert a few times and they are just awesome. I like them better with their "new" singer Steve Hogarth. Season's End, This Strange Engine, Afraid of Sunlight, and Brave are all excellent albums.

Hmmmmm. Tales and Works One off the deep end? Guess I like to swim in the deep end of the ocean then. Of course, I also like Magma, so go figure.

Le Orme are excellent. I got to see them at ProgFest in the '90's. They played Il Fiume and Fellona e Serona. Just amazing. I'd never heard of them before.

I should spend more time on Gibralter. I've been using AllMusic.com as an information resource lately. They are pretty good too.

I should definitely spend more time and money ordering albums from Greg Walker. I've met Greg several times at ProgFest. I haven't gone in years though. I damaged my hearing a few years back. Now I fear to go to concerts at all. I carry musicians earplugs at all times and I have to wear a hearing aid. It really sucks. So, I'm making an effort to get back into music. (I've spent too much time being a crazed soccer fan.)

Cool!!

- Mark

[Smiley321]

Originally Posted by markmcf

Le Orme are excellent. I got to see them at ProgFest in the '90's. They played Il Fiume and Fellona e Serona. Just amazing. I'd never heard of them before.

I don't know if you're familiar with any of these, but here are some old progrock selections I'd highly recommend:

Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso - debut album (self-titled), Darwin, Il Sono Nato Libero (best IMO) My favorite Italian progrock band from the 70's

Schicke, Fuhrs & Frohling - Symphonic Pictures (there's a CD out now with their collected works, for about the price of a single CD) The closest thing I've heard to ELP. I also found a live CD by them recently on Amazon called Live '75.

Esperanto - Danse Macabre (Belgian band) Greg Walker found me this CD, this is pretty obscure stuff.

Gentle Giant - Octopus, In a Glass House, The Power and the Glory. I'll be surprised if you haven't heard these. There's some quality clips of these guys available on youtube, from the Power and Glory days.

[markmcf]

Originally Posted by Smiley321

I don't know if you're familiar with any of these, but here are some old progrock selections I'd highly recommend:

Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso - debut album (self-titled), Darwin, Il Sono Nato Libero (best IMO) My favorite Italian progrock band from the 70's

Schicke, Fuhrs & Frohling - Symphonic Pictures (there's a CD out now with their collected works, for about the price of a single CD) The closest thing I've heard to ELP. I also found a live CD by them recently on Amazon called Live '75.

Esperanto - Danse Macabre (Belgian band) Greg Walker found me this CD, this is pretty obscure stuff.

Gentle Giant - Octopus, In a Glass House, The Power and the Glory. I'll be surprised if you haven't heard these. There's some quality clips of these guys available on youtube, from the Power and Glory days.

Ah, for Italian bands I have Montefeltro, Il Castelo di Atlante, Il Trono Dei Ricordi, and a couple of Le Orme discs.

As for Gentle Giant, an ex-girlfriend was really into them. We used to listen to Octopus a fair bit. So it's kind of painful to listen to them now. I should give them another shot.

- Mark

[Smiley321]

I bought a DVD awhile ago "Beyond the Beginning" that had a 1-hour BBC documentary on ELP and alot of old concert clips. It had a couple of interesting anecdotes:
- Greg Lake almost quit the group when Emerson rolled out Tarkus for him. He refused to play it, said it was awful. He relented, but the band almost broke up then. This is surprising to me because I think that Tarkus is one of the alltime greats of progressive rock.
- They lost a ton of money on their "Works" tour. They were set pretty good after the successful Brain Salad Surgery and Welcome Back tours, and risked it all on the next tour. Spent buttloads on all the bells and whistles (and an orchestra) that they had onstage, and nobody came. Lake and Palmer still blame Emerson for squandering their riches. I knew that the tour was a flop at the time, I didn't think Works had much interesting material in it, but I never knew how much it cost them or that it caused alot of hard feelings.

A question for you Mark: what do you think of the two King Crimson albums "Lizard" and "Islands?" I think Lizard is unlistenable and Islands merely forgettable.

[markmcf]

On the Works tour, what cost them was crossing state lines with a bunch of union truck drivers and union musicians. Not that I'm anti-union or anything, but that was the killer. Later on, the Moody Blues figured out that you can tour with an orchestra, but you need a different orchestra for each state. You send your second string conductor ahead to the next state to rehearse the orchestra in that state, whilst you tour in a different state. This only works where you can play several dates in the same state.

ELP's arguments with each other are legendary. When they recorded "Love Beach" Emerson was drunk much of the time. So Greg and Carl recorded side one of the album pretty much without Keith. Emerson later did some overdubs on that side. "An Officer and a Gentleman" was a demo track.

Ah Lizard and Islands. Both albums have some great stuff on them, but both albums are flawed. Even so, "Cirkus" is a great song. The "Battle of Glass Tears" section of Lizard is excellent. On Islands I love "Formentera Lady" sliding into "The Sailor's Tale." I also like "Song of the Gulls/Islands" on side two of that album. Ha! Side one, side two. I'm showing my age yeah? When they finally toured with this stuff they sounded wildly different, and really, really massively ugly. So Earthbound and "Ladies of the Road" are hard to listen to.

Of King Crimson's early stuff, "In the Court of the Crimson King" and "In the Wake of Poseidon" were the best.

Live Long and Progress!!

- Mark

[Smiley321]

Another funny anecdote: in the mid-70's ex-Monkees Davy Jones and Mickey Dolenz teamed with the writers of most of their hits, Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart, to form the group Dolenz, Jones, Boyce and Hart. I saw them one Saturday on American Bandstand, they lip-synch'd a song and then got interviewed after by Dick Clark. Clark asked the group "How would you describe the type of music that you do?"

Dolenz grinned and said "Progressive Bubblegum"

[markmcf]

That's funny, but I don't think it belongs in this thread. Know what I'm saying?


Live Long and Progress!

- Mark

[Smiley321]

Originally Posted by markmcf

That's funny, but I don't think it belongs in this thread. Know what I'm saying?


Live Long and Progress!

- Mark

We could take a vote on whether that post was appropriate, if there was a third proghead who could break the tie.

[HenBeaZep]

Pink Floyd, best prog rock band ever!

[Smiley321]

At the risk of being accused of apostasy, I don't consider Pink Floyd progessive rock and I never really liked them all that much. They did some good stuff, and drifted toward progressive at times, with songs like Atom Heart Mother, but still they were never one of my favorites.

A friend has a category he calls "quasi-progressive" and Pink Floyd would fall into that, for me. Manfred Mann's Earth Band, around the Solar Fire days, would be another. Unorthodox and creative, but not incorporating other forms like jazz or classical enough to be in the "progressive" category.

[HenBeaZep]

Originally Posted by Smiley321

At the risk of being accused of apostasy, I don't consider Pink Floyd progessive rock and I never really liked them all that much.

[markmcf]

Originally Posted by Smiley321

At the risk of being accused of apostasy, I don't consider Pink Floyd progessive rock and I never really liked them all that much. They did some good stuff, and drifted toward progressive at times, with songs like Atom Heart Mother, but still they were never one of my favorites.

I agree. There's an argument to be made that Pink Floyd, especially between Dark Side of the Moon and The Final Cut were an overblown blues band. Some of their early stuff was progressive, and they had some good moments on their last two albums (after Waters). But they were never as progressive as ELP, Yes, Genesis (before Phil Collins ruined them), King Crimson, or Renaissance.

And I'm not into the best band argument. It's a waste of time. I do like to talk about killer concerts though and who put on the best show.

ELP were fantastic in concert. Most of their shows were very good, and every third or fourth show they were just mindbendingly hot. Much better live than in the studio.

Yes are great in concert, though they tend to be more seductive, where as ELP tend to just steamroll the audience into submission.

Jethro Tull were excellent in concert. Really high energy and very tight.

The Moody Blues were better in concert than on their albums. I wish they had kept Moraz in the band. Sure he's crazy as a loon, but he's a monster player.

I didn't get to see King Crimson in the '70's. I did see them in the 80's and 90's. They were great on the Discipline tour, but after that I have been increasingly disappointed with them.

Oh and Mike Oldfield is killer in concert! I mean Wow!

Let's hear more suggestions.

Live Long and Progress!!

- Mark

[Smiley321]

My favorite concert of all time was the Jethro Tull "Thick as a Brick" concert. They were at their peak and played about 2-1/2 hours. Did Thick as a Brick and then alot of the favorites from previous albums.

Genesis "Trick of the Tail" was another top concert for me. Bruford was on drums while Collins sang, and for instrumentals they were both drumming. Although I like Genesis more with Gabriel, that was an excellent album and concert.

I didn't think ELP was that great in concert, their studio work was so good that they couldn't really duplicate it in concert, and Emerson's crowd-pleasing antics got on my nerves. Oddly enough, I rate "Pictures at an Exhibition" as my favorite live album of all time - great recording and great performance. "Welcome Back" was just collecting a paycheck by recycling previous material, like most live albums are. I will say that Carl Palmer is amazing in concert - the guy is perfect, never makes a mistake.

I never saw the Moody Blues live, I didn't even know that they had Moraz at some point. Moraz was a good addition to Yes after "Tales," that is probably one reason that Relayer was such a good return to form.

[markmcf]

Originally Posted by Smiley321

My favorite concert of all time was the Jethro Tull "Thick as a Brick" concert.

Genesis "Trick of the Tail" was another top concert for me.

I didn't think ELP was that great in concert, their studio work was so good that they couldn't really duplicate it in concert, and Emerson's crowd-pleasing antics got on my nerves.

I never saw the Moody Blues live, I didn't even know that they had Moraz at some point. Moraz was a good addition to Yes after "Tales," that is probably one reason that Relayer was such a good return to form.

I saw Tull several times, but not until their North Sea tour, so comparatively late. The Crest of a Knave tour was just excellent! Lot's of high energy stuff. Great show.

Genesis I also missed early (I was young and stupid). I first saw them on the Duke Tour. That was already getting pretty weak. Their Abacab Tour was essentially saying farewell to their old fans so it was really good - they played Super's Ready, The Cage, Watcher of the Skies - but it was depressing because I knew they were telling me that they weren't going to play those songs anymore.

I'm going to guess that you only saw ELP once? I saw them fifteen or sixteen times and four of those shows make my top five best shows of all time. ELP were always better live than in the studio. Sure they had some great recordings in the studio, and they did some over dubbing here and there, but live was so much more visceral. In '92 on the Black Moon tour, I took a friend of mine to four out of five consecutive shows. The first night he was really impressed. (He's a big Yes, Genesis, and Camel fan, now Marillion too.) Anyway, I told him it was only a medium hot show. The next night, they played the same set in the same order and did not play any song the same way they had played it the night before. That was hot. The fourth show of this set was just unbelievable. ELP improvised more on stage than any other band I have ever seen. I have seen them rearrange a song on the fly. Just fantastic. Sorry. I have to disagree with you. ELP have to be one of the all time top live acts.

The only other bands I've seen that even begin to approach ELP's greatness were Mike Oldfield on the Five Miles Out tour (I'm going to guess Mikey on numerous other tours also), and UK on the Night After Night tour. Oh, and le Orme the one night I was lucky enough to see them.

Live Long and Progress!!

- Mark

[Smiley321]

Originally Posted by markmcf

I'm going to guess that you only saw ELP once? I saw them fifteen or sixteen times and four of those shows make my top five best shows of all time.


- Mark

Yep, you're right. I saw them on their "Brain Salad Surgery" tour. That was the heyday of quadrophonic LP's and they had speakers in four corners to re-create it. I won't complain about their performance, I just wouldn't rate it up at the top.

I bought a quad receiver and was going to get a nice quad turntable and needle when I had the money. Quad went out of fashion before I ever bought a needle or LP to play on it.

I also saw Genesis on their "Lamb Lies Down" tour. I thought that they went overboard with the theatrics, and I thought "Lamb" was not nearly as good as "Selling England By The Pound." Gabriel was a much better frontman than Collins, though. Gabriel is a very charismatic guy, perfect for that role.

[Smiley321]

I just finished listening to the four Jethro Tull albums (1969-1972) Stand Up, Benefit, Aqualung and Thick as a Brick. I think that these albums are a colossus of rock music, creative, innovative and still immensely pleasing to me.

I rate Aqualung as maybe my favorite single album of all time, and Thick as a Brick was an excellent sequel. Up to a few years ago I might have rated Thick as a Brick a little higher. This was nearly all Ian Anderson's creative work, and it's awe-inspiring.

After Thick as a Brick, he came down to earth a little, but they all do. He's still at the top of my list of favorite rock music songwriters.